O'Malley Group 2: the Limerick O'Malley's - update June 2025

Back in 2015 or thereabouts, Denis O'Malley (a former chieftain) and a few others approached me after a talk I gave at the Silvermines Historical Society in Dolla, county Tipperary. They wanted me to help them interpret some DNA results. And thus the O'Malley's of Group 2 were born (although they had not become "Group 2" at that point in time). 

And furthermore, Denis and I are DNA cousins ... but (as with many DNA matches) we still have to figure out exactly how we are related.

O'Malley Group 2 has grown steadily over time. We had 10 people in 2019 (see previous post) and now the group numbers 21 people altogether, and has split into 6 subgroups (numbered 2a to 2f). The two common factors that connect these various subgroups is the fact that 

1. they all appear to originate from the area around counties Limerick and Clare; and 
2. their DNA signature indicates that they share a common ancestor who lived in the Limerick area some time around 400 AD.

Much research has been done on the particular portion of the Tree of Mankind where Group 2 O'Malley's sit. One of the overarching DNA markers for the Group 2 O'Malley's is L226 and this is associated with the tribe of the Dal gCáis (pronounced Doll Gosh) with origins in the region around countries Clare & Limerick. Bart Jaski wrote an authoritative account of the rise of the clan in a recent book entitled Medieval Dublin XVI: Proceedings of Clontarf 1014-2014. The chapter can be downloaded for free here (after creating an account). Denis Wright's seminal paper from 2009 describes the fascinating story of how the DNA signature of the Dal gCáis was discovered and is well worth a read.

Origins of the Limerick O'Malley's

The fact that Group 2 has been split into six subgroups does not come as a big surprise. The O'Malley surname has been present in and around Limerick since the 1100s (long before the time of Grace O'Malley, the Pirate Queen, who is associated with the Group 3a O'Malley's). This was highlighted in previous posts where the O'Malley presence in Limerick is evidenced in medieval manuscripts, such as The Black Book of Limerick. 

In addition, the 19th century antiquarian TJ Westropp refers to the Limerick O'Malley's as one of several "petty tribes ... rather families than septs ... of very uncertain affinity". Westropp also describes the territory of the O'Malley's of Limerick as being Crewmalley which appears to have been an alternative name for the townland of Ballyclogh (a few miles south of Limerick city), situated in the Civil Parish of Knocknagaul, in the Barony of Pubblebrien. See this previous post for a detailed description. 

So, with such a long presence in Limerick, it is not surprising that there may have been Surname / DNA Switches over the course of the last 900 years that have given rise to several O'Malley subgroups.

Ballyclogh townland (orange border) in the Civil Parish of Knocknagaul (yellow border)
in the Barony of Pubblebrien (blue border).

The Group 2 subgroups & the Tree of Mankind

Here are the six subgroups of Group 2. Some members have supplied details of their EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor). Ten members have done the Big Y test, which has provided us with their current "terminal SNP" (the DNA marker in the Haplogroup column) and this in turn has enabled us to place each of these groups on the Tree of Mankind (a.k.a. Y-Haplotree) and visualise how they are related to each other.

The list of ancestral SNPs (DNA markers)* associated with each of the subgroups gives us an idea of which subgroups are more closely related to each other ...

• R-Z17669 > R-FGC79628 > R-DC63 > R-BY4101 > R-DC362 > R-DC735 ... Group 2a
• R-Z17669 > R-FGC79628 > R-DC63 > R-BY4101 > R-DC362 ... Group 2b
• R-Z17669 > R-ZZ31_1 > R-FGC5628 > R-BY4102 > R-DC40 > R-FT62906 > R-FT159770 > R-FT244455 > R-FT242218 ... Group 2c
• R-Z17669 > R-ZZ31_1 > R-FGC5628 > R-FGC5623 > R-FGC5659 > R-DC209 > R-DC21 ... Group 2f
• R-Z17669 > R-ZZ31_1 > R-DC194 > R-FTA80958 ... Group 2d
• R-Z17669 > R-DC9 > R-DC8 > R-DC1165 > R-DC135 > R-FT223736 ... Group 2e

Thus all the groups share a common ancestor who passed on the DNA marker Z17669 to them all. Note that Z17669 is itself a descendant of L226 thus:

• R-L226 > FGC5660 > Z17669

Groups 2a and 2b share a more recent common ancestor who passed on the DNA marker DC362 to both groups.

Similarly, Groups 2c, 2f, and 2d share a more recent common ancestor who passed on the DNA marker ZZ31_1 to them all. And in fact, Groups 2c and 2f, share an even more recent common ancestor who passed on the DNA marker FGC5628 to them both. 

We can also see a visual representation of this on the Group Time Tree for these subgroups. This shows the following:

• the common ancestor for all groups (Z1699) lived about 400 AD
• the common ancestor for Groups 2b and 2a (DC362) lived about 750 AD
• the common ancestor for Groups 2d, 2c and 2f (ZZ31_1) lived about 450 AD
• the common ancestor for Groups 2c and 2f (FGC5628) lived about 500 AD

Group Time Tree for O'Malley Group 2 subgroups (with crude dates)

Initial age estimates for each of the branching points were very crude, but this has changed since FTDNA introduced the new Discover feature and the associated suite of tools. This does give us more precise age estimates, but the ranges (95% Confidence Intervals) around these TMRCA estimates (TMRCA, Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) are still quite large (usually +/- 200-300 years) so we cannot take these age estimates as gospel. A copious amount of salt needs to be sprinkled upon them. And they will change and evolve as more data is added to the Tree of Mankind. 

Nevertheless, these age estimates give us a useful idea of how closely each of the Group 2 subgroups are related, and it is clear from the above diagram that all of these subgroups share common ancestors before the emergence of surnames in Ireland (about 1000 AD). And this in turn suggests that all of these subgroups acquired the O'Malley name independently of each other i.e. there is not a single common ancestor called O'Malley for all six subgroups. Expressed another way, the common ancestor who lived about 400 AD was not called "O'Malley" (he was about 600 years too soon for a surname), but at least 6 of his many descendants somehow acquired the surname "O'Malley" (or variant) and passed it down to their descendants. The question is: how? or why?

It is also worth noting that this common ancestor from 400 AD also gave rise to a variety of other surnames, and in fact, he has over 350 descendant branches, containing about 500 people with a variety of different surnames ... 

"Classic Tree" view of the Z17669 branch (see here)

Unfortunately there is no version of the Tree of Mankind that shows "every branch with every surname" so we have to fish around for surname information (either among the matches of the members on a particular branch, or by searching for the relevant branch of the Group Time Tree in relevant projects - it's a very cumbersome exercise). Below is the Time Tree version for each of the 6 subgroups, along with their adjacent branches, so we get some idea of the surnames that sit nearby. Note that the Time Tree gives all the branches with no surnames, and the Group Time Tree does give surnames, but only if a) the member is in that particular DNA project / "Group"; and b) only if he has has changed his settings from the default "private" setting. It's complicated!

Group 2e

This subgroup consists of only the one person. He has done the Big Y-700 test so we have data for his first 111 STR markers as well as his current "terminal SNP" (namely FT223736) based on an analysis of over 200,000 SNP markers. You can see where he sits on the Tree of Mankind below, as well as the surnames (and EKA) of his nearest genetic neighbours on adjacent branches. His closest genetic matches sit on the FTB65001 branch and both are called McMahan. These two McMahan men share a common ancestor about 1767, but the ancestor they share with the single Group 2e O'Malley would have lived about 1450.

Reviewing his STR matches reveals that he does not have any particularly close matches and there is no dominant surname among them. So this does not give us any clues as to where his O'Malley surname came from, or if it was some other surname prior to becoming "O'Malley". So, an open question is: did McMahan come before O'Malley? or did O'Malley come before McMahan?

Of potential significance is the fact that one group of people who adopted the McMahon surname came from neighbouring county Clare. The name derives from Mahon, grandson of Brian Boru, High King of Ireland, who was killed by the Vikings at the battle of Clontarf in 1014. See more about the history of this surname here.

Time Tree showing branch FT223736 and adjacent branches
- surnames & EKA info was sourced from Z253 Project &
STR matches of the single Group 2e member 
(click to enlarge)

Groups 2a and 2b

Group 2a has 10 members, 3 of which have done the Big Y test (which indicates they sit on branch DC735). Group 2b has 3 members, one of which has done the Big Y test (which indicates they currently sit on the upstream branch DC362).

Below is a snapshot of the DC362 branch of the Group Time Tree for the Z253 Project. This only gives a limited number of the surnames attached to the various branches below DC362 but it does give some indication as to the nearest neighbours for Groups 2a and 2b. Only two of the three Big Y test-takers from Group 2a are shown. The third Group 2a Big Y test-taker and the single Big Y test-taker from Group 2b are not shown, probably because they are not members of the Z253 Project. This is a further explanation for why "all the relevant data is not all in the same place".

Group Time Tree for DC362 from Z253 Project

The DC362 branch (Group 2b) is about 1250 years old, given that the age of DC362 is about 750 AD. Other surnames associated with this branch are varied and are mainly of Irish origin (as per the limited diagram above). The closest STR matches of the Group 2b O'Malley's are each other. They do not match any other surnames closely. So they appear to sit on a relatively isolated branch of the Tree of Mankind with a connection to their nearest genetic neighbours about 1250 years ago.

The three Big Y test-takers of Group 2a sit on the DC735 branch and the age estimate for this branch is about 1822 (range 1675-1920). This is in keeping with the known genealogy for this group, which was discussed in the 2019 update and is shown again below. Based on these known genealogies for the group, the overarching common ancestor for the current group members may have been born about 1750 or 1720.

Of note, 5 group members have ancestry from Murroe and 3 from Cappamore, which are about 5 miles apart, and 10 miles east of Limerick.

Murroe & Cappamore, county Limerick

So it appears that the O'Malley surname has been associated with Group 2a for at least the last 250 years or so. But what happened before that (i.e. from 1750 back to 1000 AD - when surnames arose) is currently not known. It may be that the O'Malley surname has been associated with this group for much longer than 250 years but we would need Big Y data from additional test-takers to answer that question. There are no big clues among the many STR matches of the Group 2 members, although matches with the name Slattery seem to be genetically closer than matches with other surnames. Whether or not this is a relevant observation remains to be seen as more people join the FTDNA database and more data comes in.

2019 Mutation History Tree for Group 2a showing where mutations occurred
(yellow boxes are test-takers; Y111 = Y-DNA111 test, etc;
SP = SNP Pack; BY = Big Y; SNPs in blue, STRs in red)
(click to enlarge)

2019 McGuire Chart for those Group 2a men who have also done atDNA testing
(numbers represent amount of DNA shared in cM)
(click to enlarge)

Group 2c

This group of four O'Malley men sits on the FT242218 branch, the common ancestor of which lived about 1450. So the O'Malley name has been associated with this group for at least the past 550 years - this is the longest time (established thus far) for any of the Group 2 subgroups.

One of the group has ancestors from Castleton Cross, county Galway.

Evaluation of the STR matches for this group, and the group's position on the Time Tree, did not provide any suggestions regarding the evolution of the O'Malley surname pre-1450. 

Time Tree showing branch FT242218 and adjacent branches
- surnames & EKA info was sourced from
STR matches of Group 2e members 
(click to enlarge)

Group 2d

Both men in this group have done the Big Y test and this place's them on the FTA80958 branch of the Tree of Mankind, sharing a common ancestor who lived about 1765, which is within a generation or two of their respective EKAs. 

But this branch is also a very isolated branch and the common ancestor (DC194) that they share with their nearest genetic neighbours lived about 550 AD (roughly 1500 years ago).

One of the group members has ancestry from Ennis in county Clare.

Their STR matches (which include non-Big-Y test-takers) offer no additional suggestions about the origins and evolution of this group.

Time Tree showing branch FTA80958 and adjacent branches

Group 2f

The sole man in this group is an O'Melia and he sits on the DC21 branch. The common ancestor for this branch lived about 1000 AD. The two other people who sit on this branch are a Riel & a Malone.

Time Tree showing the three men currently sitting on branch DC21
- surnames & EKA info was sourced from STR matches of the sole member 
(click to enlarge)

Conclusions

The O'Malley men of Group 2 belong to the tribe of the Dal gCáis. Many ruling families in Limerick & Clare descend from this dynasty including clans with the following surnames: O'Brien (descendants of Brian Boru), McNamara, O'Kennedy, O'Grady, O'Dea, O'Quinn, McInerney, and Moloney. These surnames appear among the matches of many of the men in the various subgroups of Group 2.

The subgroup with the most test-takers is Group 2a (10 members), but the group who has been carrying the O'Malley name for the longest period of time is currently Group 2c. It is not possible to say which of the 6 subgroups is most likely to represent the group of O'Malley's described by Westropp as living in Crewmalley (aka Ballyclogh). It may even be that another subgroup exists who will prove to be descended from that particular family. 

Hopefully, as the FTDNA database grows and more Big Y data becomes available, additional light will be thrown on these tantalising questions.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025

* to do this I use the "Find Common Ancestor" tool on Rob Spencer's Admin Utilities website at ... http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/adminUtils.html

O'Malley Group 1 - update June 2025

There are now 5 people in Group 1. An additional member joined the first four members in about August 2024. His name is Teague but he has also done the Big Y test and his results have proved very informative for dating the age of the group.

Common Genealogy

The first four members are all closely related and share a known common ancestor, namely their great grandfather on their direct male lines, Michael O'Maley born in Boston, Massachusetts in 1845. His father was John O'Maley, born about 1795 in Galway, and died in Boston (see above).

The EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) for the Teague participant was born in 1893 in Boston, Massachusetts. This is the same place where the ancestors of the O'Malley members ended up. So it could be that a Surname / DNA Switch occurred in Boston, some time after the immigration of the O'Malley ancestors for this group. In other words, the direct-male-line ancestors for the Teague member could have originally been O'Malley. But at the moment, we cannot be certain in which direction the potential switch occurred.

How old is the group?

Analysis of the initial results of the project members revealed that they belonged to Haplogroup I2a1b, which is associated with the gradual influx of "Hunter-Gatherers" to Ireland from about 12,000 years ago onwards and into the Bronze Age. 

Early branches of Haplogroup I (from Eupedia)

The "terminal SNP" for Group 1 at that stage (2017 update) was A8611, which is now equivalent to the DNA marker Y24829. However, the Big Y results from the new project member mean that there are now two people within the group who have Big Y results. These show that the third and fifth project members above sit on a branch of the Tree of Mankind characterised by the DNA marker FT111700. In addition, the first two project members sit on a branch characterised by the DNA marker Y24829. This latter information was extracted from their Family Finder test results and such information is a lot less detailed than the Big Y data. In fact, if we look at the list of ancestral SNPs for FT111700, we see that Y24829 (a.k.a. A8611) is actually 2 steps "upstream" (i.e. more distant / older) than FT111700.

• I-FGC7113 > S2639 > L1498 > FGC7094 > Y13518 > A1150 > Y24829 > BY37245 > FT111700

Previous age estimates (in 2017, 2019, & 2021) were pretty crude and calculated A8611 / Y24829 and it's sub-branch BY37245 to be about 3000-4300 years old. However, since the last update, FTDNA have introduced the Discover feature, which has a suite of tools including the Time Tree, which provides more precise age estimates for each branching point, and is very useful for visualising the various branches on the Tree of Mankind. Here is the portion of the Time Tree for FT111700 (red icon) showing the two Group 1 Big Y test-takers ... 

Time Tree for FT111700 (red icon) & neighbouring branches

Discover gives us more precise age estimates (TMRCA, Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) for the various branches as follows. But note the ranges - they are still very large (and will never be less than +/- 50 years, even with a vast ton of data), so we will always need to take these estimates with a very large pinch of salt:

• the common ancestor for branch FT111700 lived about 1769 AD (range 1555-1905)
• the common ancestor for branch BY37245 lived about 964 AD (range 275-1435)
• the common ancestor for branch Y24829 lived about 1773 BC (range 2841-918 BC)

So from this we can surmise that the two Big Y test-takers in Group 1 (namely Maley & Teague) shared a common ancestor about 1769 AD (+/- c.200 years). The question remains: which came first? Were the Malley's originally Teague? or were the Teague's originally Malley's? We need data from more testers to answer this question. 

We will get more information about this portion of the Tree of Mankind when we look at the Group Time Tree below.

Where did the group come from?

It is worth noting that Surname Distribution Maps for the surname Teague indicate that it is particularly concentrated in county Tyrone, and variants of the surname (e.g. Tighe, McTeague, McTigue, etc) are concentrated in northwest Ireland, including Mayo. So it may be that if there was a Surname / DNA Switch that it occurred in Ireland, prior to emigration of the O'Malley line to the US, and possibly a generation or two prior to their EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor), namely John O'Maley, born about 1795 in Galway. But, as we said above, this is only conjecture at this stage and we need data from more test-takers to address this question.

Another recent feature from FTDNA is the Group Time Tree (which includes surnames and EKAs of group members) and one of the Suggested Projects for Y24829 is the Y-Haplogroup I2a Project, which has 12 members who sit on the Y24829 branch. 

Suggested Projects for Y24829

The Y24829 portion of the Group Time Tree associated with this project is below. This shows the nearest genetic neighbours to the Group 1 O'Malley's but does not really give us any definite clue as to their deeper origins ... 

Y24829 branch of the Group Time Tree for the Y-Haplogroup I2a Project

Firstly, the nearest genetic neighbour (Pietz) to Group 1 had an Irish ancestor (EKA O Bryan) and shared a common ancestor with Group 1 who passed on the DNA marker BY37245 to them all, and this common ancestor lived about 964 AD (+/- c.500 years), which is around the time surnames started emerging in Ireland.

The 3 people on the BY37245 branch (Teague, Maley, & Pietz, whose EKA was an O Bryan) all seem to have Irish origins, but their nearest genetic neighbours (with whom they share a common ancestor almost 3000 years beforehand) could be from England, Scotland or elsewhere. Elucidating the deeper origins of these branches requires data from a lot more test-takers and hopefully that will happen over time.

Also of note, there is a Teague DNA Project on FTDNA, but none of the 110 members appear to have the same Y-DNA signature as our Group 1 Teague member. There is also a Tighe DNA Project with 45 members, but again, none of the members appear to be close matches to our Group 1 Teague participant. And in addition, among the Y-DNA matches of this participant, there are no matches with the surname Teague (or variant), which again suggests that the surname switch occurred in the Teague member of Group 1 rather than the O'Malley members. But it is still early days.

Conclusions so far

According to the most current age estimate, the 5 people in Group 1 are related via a common ancestor who lived about 1769 (+/- c.200 years). This is very close in time to the EKA for the Group 1 O'Malley's, namely John O'Maley, born about 1795 in Galway, and died in Boston. It seems that there was a Surname / DNA Switch within a few generations of this particular ancestor but currently we do not have enough data to determine which came first - O'Malley or Teague.

The nearest genetic neighbour to Group 1 is a man called Pietz whose EKA was an O Bryan, suggesting an Irish origin. The common ancestor between Pietz and Group 1 lived about 964 AD (+/- c.200 years), which is just about when surnames started to emerge in Ireland. This date suggests that Group 1 ancestors lived in Ireland for at least the last 1000 years, and possibly well before that.

Prior to that, the nearest genetic neighbours are from Scotland and England (and perhaps elsewhere) and share a common ancestor with Group 1 about 3800 years ago (+/- c.1000 years). So, Group 1 sits on a relatively isolated branch of the Tree of Mankind, but this is not unusual for Haplogroup I (Hunter-Gatherers) which is a more ancient branch than Haplogroup R (Metal Age Invaders), and many branches of Haplogroup I have gone extinct over the millennia.

One theory is that the Group 1 O'Malley's originally came from Mayo (an O'Malley stronghold), moved south to county Galway (maybe sometime in the 1600s or 1700s), a Surname / DNA Switch occurred sometime in the late 1700s, and the O'Malley's ended up with Teague DNA ... or the Teague's ended up with the O'Malley surname. It could have gone either way.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025

O'Malley Group 4 - update June 2025

The number of people in Group 4 has not changed since the last update in 2019 - it still consists of three people. And their surnames are Mealey, Meally, and Maley. 

Where is the Group from?

One of the group members has an EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) on his direct-male line from Tuam in county Galway, and another member goes back to Castlecomer in county Kilkenny. In addition, several of the surnames among Group 4's matches are heavily concentrated in or around Kilkenny (e.g. Whalen, Brazil, Bergin, Hickey, Burgess - see previous update). So Kilkenny is currently the main contender for the point of origin of at least one of their O'Malley ancestors. 

But was this always the case? or did their more distant ancestors come from elsewhere prior to Kilkenny?

How old is the group?

Since the last update, FTDNA have introduced the Discover feature, which has a suite of tools including the Time Tree, and this has proved very helpful in visualising the age of the various branches on the Tree of Mankind, as well as the position of the various genetic groups within the O'Malley DNA Project and their relation to their nearest genetic neighbours on adjacent branches.

Time Tree for O'Malley Group 4 showing BY70535 (red icon)
and nearest genetic neighbours on adjacent branches

For members of Group 4, two of them have done the Big Y test and this has placed them on a branch of the Tree of Mankind characterised by the DNA marker BY70535. The age estimate for this branch is about 1781 (range 1568-1915). You can see this in the Time Tree diagram above (red icon).

We also know that the first and third member of Group 4 share 291cM on Ancestry (and thus are probable 2nd cousins, presumably on their O'Malley lines). Their respective pedigrees are as follows:

1) first member 867092 ... no pedigree supplied

2) second member 268068

1. John Mealey aka Mealy born 1791 Cloneen, Castlecomer, County Kilkenny, IRELAND. m Mary Byrne

2. John Mealey b 18 Feb 1814, d 24 Feb 1873. m Sarah Conners

3. George Mealey b Apr 1816, d 1864. m Margeret Buggy

4. descends

5. MM 268068

3) third member 781053

1. Thomas Maley born 1844 Ireland; died aft 1890 Schuykill Co. PA, USA; m Bridget Tobin b1849

2. James John Maley born 1881; died 1929 Schuykill Co. PA

3. father

4. TJM 781053

Given all the above information it is possible that all three men share John Mealey c1791 as a common ancestor.

Who are the nearest genetic neighbours?

The Group 4 O'Malley's sit on branch BY70535 and they and their nearest genetic neighbours sit on the branch one step above, characterised by the DNA marker BY601. The age estimate for this branch is 545 AD (range 249-793). So the age difference between these two branches is 1781-545 = 1236 years ... and a lot could have happened during that time. So Group 4 O'Malley's sit on a relatively isolated branch of the Tree of Mankind with nearest genetic neighbours with whom they share a common ancestor some 1500 years ago, well before the emergence of surnames in Ireland.

Another version of the Tree of Mankind is FTDNA's Group Time Tree. This is similar to the Time Tree but includes the surnames of test-takers as well as their EKA information. And this could give clues to their deeper origins of the Group 4 O'Malley's. The Suggested Projects associated with BY601 include the "R-CTS1751 and Subclades Project", which in turn has 28 members who sit on the BY601 branch. 

Suggested Projects associate with DNA marker BY601

We can view the BY601 section of this project on the Group Time Tree and this reveals the names of some of the nearest genetic neighbours on the adjacent branches ...

Group Time Tree extract for the BY601 section of the "R-CTS1751 and Subclades" project

These nearest neighbours include several Irish & Scottish surnames:

• Irish: Brazil (2), Bergin (3), Phelan or variant (5)
• Scottish: McKinnon or variant (3), MacMaster (2)

So the genetic origins of this group could either be Irish or Scottish.

Conclusions & Next Steps

The three members of Group 4 are quite closely related. Two of them are probable 2nd cousins and they may be 3rd cousins to the remaining member. The overarching common ancestor / ancestral couple may be Thomas Maley (1844 to 1890+) and his wife Bridget Tobin (born 1849). Or it could be one or more generations before this.

For now, all we can say is that Group 4 has been carrying the O'Malley surname (or variant) since about 1781 (the TMRCA for branch BY70535), but prior to that there is a gap of some 1200 years before the next common ancestor (BY601) for the O'Malley's and their nearest genetic neighbours. What happened in that intervening period is anybody's guess, but it would not be surprising if some sort of Surname Switch or DNA Switch occurred during that time.

It's possible that this group was originally from Mayo (the ancestral homeland of the Mayo O'Malley's), then moved down to Galway (Tuam?), and from there they moved to Kilkenny. And somewhere along the way (possibly in Kilkenny), a DNA switch occurred such that the O'Malley name became associated with the DNA signature it now carries (namely BY70535). It's a theory at this stage - no more. But as time goes by, we will probably accumulate more data that may shed some light on the remaining unanswered questions.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025

O'Malley Group 5 - update June 2025

Group 5 was formed in June 2019 when a new member joined the DNA Project and was a match to an existing member in the Ungrouped section (see previous post here). These two project members formed the new "Group 5" and even at that early stage there was a lot that the Y-DNA results told us about the group in terms of its origins and its evolution.

The Earliest Known Ancestors of these two group members (on their direct-male-lines) came from Galway (specifically Kilmilkin) & Roscommon (neighbouring counties) and the predominant surname among their DNA matches was Joyce (79% of matches). This suggested origins in "Joyce Country" which is in the border area between northern Galway and southern Mayo (see below). 

Other surnames (e.g. Coyne, Newell & Nally) had surname distribution maps which also suggested origins in county Galway.

Joyce Country (in green) with Kilmilkin / Kilmeelickin indicated by the yellow dot

Distribution of the surname COYNE in the mid-1800s

Distribution of the surname NEWELL in the mid-1800s

Distribution of the surname NALLY in the mid-1800s

The heavy preponderance of matches called Joyce suggested that this branch of the O'Malley's had previously carried the surname Joyce. The Time Tree below (from the last update in May 2024) shows the single O'Malley Big Y-test-taker sitting on the FT91246 branch. He is surrounded by men called Joyce on adjacent branches. This strongly suggests that Joyce came first and a Surname Switch to O'Malley occurred some time after 1434 AD (or thereabouts).

Time Tree with Surnames for Group 5 (May 2024)
click to enlarge

However, since this last update, an additional group member has done the Big Y test and this has given us a more precise estimate for when this Surname Switch occurred. The updated version of this part of the Time Tree shows that new matches have appeared in the database and now there are two O'Malley Big Y test-takers sitting on their own specific branch, a new branch immediately below FT91246 called branch FTF86799.

Time Tree extract with Surnames for Group 5 (June 2025)
click to enlarge

The age estimate for this new O'Malley Group 5 branch is 1609 AD (95% Confidence Interval 1307-1809). And the revised current estimate for FT91246 is 1442 (range 1269-1579). And because there are mainly Joyce men on branch FT91246 and only two O'Malley men on branch FTF86799, this suggests that the switch from Joyce to O'Malley happened some time between 1442 (or thereabouts) and 1609 (or thereabouts).

Furthermore, one of the current 4 members has updated his EKA (Earliest Known Ancestor) information and now two of the four group members have origins in Kilmilkin, county Galway.

Group 5 currently has 4 members (2 have done the Big Y  test)
click to enlarge

So O'Malley Group 5 were previously called Joyce before they became O'Malley's and their origin was from or near the Kilmilkin area of northwest county Galway, bordering on southern Mayo.

We will revisit these findings when we come to consider a second (separate) group of Kilmilkin O'Malley's in Group 3g, because the switch from Joyce to O'Malley discussed above may very well have been followed by a further switch, but this time in the DNA, and this switch may have occurred several generations before a well-known O'Malley ancestor called Seán "Na Firinne" Ó Máille (Sean "The Truthful" O'Malley, c1740-c1800).

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025

O'Malley Group 6 - update June 2025

 In the previous post, we outlined the standard questions one can ask when analysing the results for a specific genetic group within any Surname DNA Project:

1. Is there a dominant surname (or surname variant) within the group?
2. Have the members been accurately grouped? Are there any Chance Matches? Any DNA or Surname Switches (also known as NPEs, Non-Paternal Events)
3. Are there any clues as to where the group is from?
4. How old is the group? How far back is the Most Recent Common Ancestor? Is the DNA signature likely to have been passed down from the surname’s originator (1000 years ago or thereabouts)?
5. Is the group likely to be associated with an Irish “Clan”? And to answer this question, we need to assess: a) where does it sit on the Tree of Mankind (a.k.a. Y-Haplotree)? b) who are the nearest genetic neighbours? and c) does this tie in with the Irish medieval genealogies?

So let's see to what extent we can address these questions in relation to Group 6.

Group 6 consists of two members and both of them have done the Big Y-700 test. They differ by a Genetic Distance (GD) of 2 / 111 (i.e. 2 out of 111 markers) indicating that they are likely to be quite closely related, probably sometime within the last several hundred years. 

Group 6 members showing 2 differences (coloured cells) on the first 37 markers

FTDNA's Time Predictor (TiP tool) translates this Genetic Distance into a very crude age estimate of sometime between 1650 and 1900, with a best guess of 1800.

Time Predictor estimates for a GD of 2 / 111

But because both men have done the Big Y test, we can get a more precise estimate of when their common ancestor lived (i.e. TMRCA estimate). Both men share the DNA marker FTD10909. FTDNA's Discover tool allows us to see where this DNA marker sits on the Tree of Mankind as well as an age estimate for when the common ancestor (who passed on this marker) lived. The central estimate is 1460 AD (with a 95% Confidence Interval of 1092 to 1711 AD). This age estimate is quite different from the much cruder age estimate above based solely on Genetic Distance, but it still has quite a wide range (roughly +/-300 years). Even with much more data, these ranges will never get more narrow than about +/- 50 years ... the current technology will simply not allow it.

FTDNA's Time Tree showing location for FTD10909 (red icon at the bottom)

So the common ancestor for these two Group 6 members probably lived some time in the 1400s. Furthermore, we can surmise that the O'Malley name has been associated with this particular DNA signature for the past 600 years, possibly longer. The question remains: has the O'Malley name been associated with this particular DNA signature for the past 1000 years (i.e. since the time surnames first emerged) and therefore are we looking at the DNA signature of the progenitor of the surname of the Group 6 O'Malley's? Only further matches and further Big Y results will tell us the answer to that question.

Can we tell where this ancestor came from? Well, both Group 6 members have entered information about their Earliest Known Ancestors (EKA) on the direct-male-line, but only one of them has given information about the birth location of their EKA, namely Muiceneach, in county Galway, Ireland. However, there appear to be several townlands with this name in county Galway so we cannot be certain which one it is.

The nearest genetic neighbours (13 on the Time Tree above) share a common ancestor with the two Group 6 members, who passed on the DNA marker BY16772 to all his 15 descendants above. The current age estimate (TMRCA) for this common ancestor is about 900 AD (more precisely 868 AD, with a 95% Confidence Interval of 510 to 1151 AD). The 900 AD timepoint is a little bit before the start of when surnames emerged in Ireland, so these people on the neighbouring branches will be related to the Group 6 members during the time of the early medieval clans and thus may connect with some of the medieval genealogies. The question  is: who are the 13 people on the neighbouring branches?

Well, we can see from the flag icons that most of them have ancestry from Ireland. One goes back to Scotland, another goes back to Spain, and the remaining 6 are of unknown ancestral origin (probably because they have not filled in that particular information on their FTDNA accounts). But can we find out their names?

To do so, there are several routes we can explore. Firstly, I searched the Y-DNA matches of the two Group 6 members for all the DNA markers in the Time Tree diagram above. This identified 7 of the 13 individuals. I then looked at the Suggested Projects for BY16772 on the Discover tool. This identified 14 different projects, 11 of which had members who sat on or below the branch characterised by BY16772. I then checked the individual projects and found another 2 people. Lastly, I tried a simple google search for "FTDNA" and the name of each DNA marker, but no further information was found. So, this search found 9 of the 13 people sitting on or below the BY16772 branch, and these are illustrated in the diagram below.

FTDNA's Time Tree with surnames of participants included

Interestingly, there are a variety of different names in this portion of the tree and this suggests that one or more Surname or DNA Switches (NPEs, Non-Paternal Events) have occurred among the members of this group over the past 1000 years. This is not surprising as we would expect the likelihood of such events on any direct-male-line to be in the region of 33-55% over a 1000-year period. Furthermore, at this stage there is not enough information to determine: which came first? Corcoran or Ward? Leyden or Campbell? etc.

I searched for these various names in the Surname Distribution Maps on John Grenham's website and three of these surnames (Duffy, Corcoran, & Ward) are fairly widespread throughout Ireland, but the surname Leydon is more concentrated in the area around Sligo and Leitrim in northwest Ireland. So this may be close to where the O'Malley's of Group 6 originated.

So, to what extent have we answered the questions posed at the start of this article?

1. Is there a dominant surname (or surname variant) within the group?   Yes ... O'Malley
2. Have the members been accurately grouped?   Yes, they both share the same DNA marker, namely FTD10909.
3. Are there any clues as to where the group is from?   Possibly from northwest Ireland, close to the area around Sligo & Leitrim. One of the two group members has ancestry that goes back to Galway in the early 1800s.
4. How old is the group?   This is quite an old group. The two test-takers probably share a common ancestor some time in the 1400s.
5. Is the group likely to be associated with an Irish “Clan”?   It is difficult to say at this stage because of the limited amount of information available, but their nearest genetic neighbours include men called Duffy, Corcoran, Ward, Campbell, Jones & Leydon. No single name is the dominant surname, and more data will be needed to figure out which surname came first and which surnames followed. So, for now, the origins of the Group 6 O'Malley's remain obscure.

And that is the current status of Group 6. Group members could try to recruit more male O'Malley's to test by looking through their Y-DNA matches (and autosomal DNA matches) to see if there are any potential candidates there. This was described in the previous blog post.

Hopefully as more people join this group, and as we accumulate more Big Y data, we will be better able to address the standard questions above and build a clearer picture of the Group 6 O'Malley's.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025

O'Malley Group 7 - update June 2025

Y-DNA testing allows us to group men together who are likely to share a common ancestor on their direct-male-line some time in the last 1000 years (which is roughly the time when surnames emerged in Ireland). 

So far, 18 distinct genetic groups have been identified in the O'Malley DNA Project and this article explores Group 7.

When analysing any genetic group (in any surname project), there are several standard questions that we can ask ourselves:

1. Is there a dominant surname (or surname variant) within the group?
2. Have the members been accurately grouped? Are there any Chance Matches? Any DNA or Surname Switches (also known as NPEs, Non-Paternal Events)
3. Are there any clues as to where the group is from?
4. How old is the group? How far back is the Most Recent Common Ancestor? Is the DNA signature likely to have been passed down from the surname’s originator (1000 years ago or thereabouts)?
5. Is the group likely to be associated with an Irish “Clan”? And to answer this question, we need to assess: a) where does it sit on the Tree of Mankind (a.k.a. Y-Haplotree)? b) who are the nearest genetic neighbours? and c) does this tie in with the Irish medieval genealogies?

So let's see to what extent we can address these questions in relation to Group 7.

Group 7 only has 2 members (both carrying the O'Malley surname) so the amount of information we can glean from this group may be quite limited. Not surprisingly, the more people that there are in a group, the more likely we can get reasonably robust answers to the questions above.

Of the two members in Group 7, one did the Y-DNA37 test (which assesses 37 DNA markers) and the other person did the Big Y-700 test (which assesses the same 37 DNA markers and over 200,000 additional DNA markers).

The two test-takers can only be compared on the 37 DNA markers (because that is all that both have results for) and this shows that they have a Genetic Distance (GD) of 3 / 37 (i.e. their DNA signatures are identical on 34 out of the 37 DNA markers and only differ by a single "one-step mutation" on 3 of the 37 markers).

FTDNA are able to translate this Genetic Distance into a very crude age estimate for their common ancestor (known as a TMRCA estimate, Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) and this shows he lived some time between 1000 AD and 1800 AD, as illustrated below. This age estimate lacks the precision that we would want for genealogical purposes, but tells us that these two O'Malley men are related within the surname era.

Age (TMRCA) estimates based on a GD of 3 / 37

Only one of the test-takers has entered information for his earliest known ancestor on his direct-male-line. This tells us that the origins for this test-taker go back to county Mayo in Ireland, which is the ancestral homeland of many O'Malley's.

Results Page showing Group 7 members' "Paternal Ancestor" details

In addition, the two test-takers have relatively few Y-DNA matches, and only match each other at the 37-marker level of comparison. This suggests that the two men probably sit on a relatively isolated branch of the Tree of Mankind (and that there is a low risk of Convergence i.e. minimal "interference" from other test-takers in the database just matching them by chance).

Person A: number of Y-DNA matches (in brackets) at each level of comparison

Person B: number of Y-DNA matches (in brackets) at each level of comparison

The results of the test-taker who did the Big Y-700 test confirm the suspicion that they sit on an isolated branch. His results indicate that he tests positive for a DNA marker called FTC91067 and we can see where this marker sits on the Tree of Mankind (and hence the test-taker's position on the Tree). FTDNA have several versions of the Tree of Mankind (in different formats) and the image below is taken from their "Time Tree" (see here).

The position of FTC91067 (red icon) on the Time Tree: the O'Malley test-taker is the one with the Irish flag icon (on the right), and his nearest neighbours are the 4 men below him (with the globe icon)
(click to enlarge)

This diagram only shows us the test-taker who did the Big Y-700 test (Irish flag icon). It does not show the other Group 7 test-taker (who only did the Y-DNA37 test) because his Y-DNA37 test does not test for the relevant DNA markers. He would need to upgrade to the Big Y test in order to be placed on the Tree of Mankind. And if he did, he and the other test-taker would probably form a new branch, below (i.e. more recent than) FTC91067, sometime in the last 1000 years.

However, what we can tell from the present data is that these two O'Malley men do indeed sit on a relatively isolated branch of the Tree of Mankind - their nearest neighbours (a group of 4 closely-related men) share a common ancestor with them who passed down the DNA marker FTC91067 to them all. And age estimates (i.e. TMRCA) for this common ancestor indicate that he lived about 500 BC, over 2500 years ago, well before the emergence of surnames in Ireland (about 1000 years ago).

I then tried to find out who these 4 neighbouring men are (or at least their surnames) by using the DNA marker associated with their particular branch of the Tree of Mankind, namely FTC90701. However, this marker does not appear among the Y-DNA matches of either Group 7 member, and a google search for "FTDNA FTC90701" did not turn up any relevant results. I also checked the Family Finder results for the one test-taker who had done the test, but again, the search found no matches with FTC90701 (nor any markers immediately ancestral to it). I only had partial luck when I entered FTC90701 into the Search field for FTDNA's Discover tool and navigated to the Suggested Projects tab ...

Two members of the Turner DNA Project belong to FTC90701

There were 6 suggested projects, each with varying numbers of members, but most had "0 [members] belong to R-FTC90701". The only exception was the Turner DNA Project, which had 2 members who sat on the FTC90701 branch. So this tells us that at least 2 of these 4 neighbouring men are probably called Turner. I say probably because we cannot check this against the Results Page of the Turner DNA Project because the Project Administrator has set it to private. Nevertheless, does this give us any clues as to where Group 7 originated?

Well, Surname Distribution Maps on John Grenham's wonderful website tell us that 350 households carried the  name Turner in the mid-1800s in Ireland. Furthermore, we learn that the surname Turner was "numerous: evenly distributed all areas but greater numbers in Ulster. The name has been in Ireland since 15 cent with most coming in 17 cent from both Scotland & England." So it is possible that the deeper origins for Group 7 will turn out to be English or Scottish. And if so, then how did their Y-DNA get into Ireland? Maybe they were gallowglasses? or planters? or merchants? And when did they arrive in Ireland?And when did they become O'Malley's.

These are all intriguing questions, but only further information will tell. And that means a waiting game for more matches to arrive in the database, and match the Group 7 members, and do the Big Y test.

Surname Distribution Map for the surname Turner in Ireland (mid-1800s)

In regards to additional Y-DNA matches, it may be possible to actively recruit some. One of the Group 7 test-takers did the Family Finder test (which assesses all the chromosomes apart from the Y-Chromosome), and among his matches, there are 7 people called O'Malley, Malia, or some other variant. It would be worthwhile approaching these people and asking them 1) if they have done the Y-DNA test; and 2) if they haven't, would they consider doing it; and 3) if not, could they pass on the message to any male O'Malley's in their family who might be interested in doing it. 

It costs nothing to ask. And it may provide the breakthrough you've been waiting for.

So, to what extent have we answered the questions posed at the start?

1. Is there a dominant surname (or surname variant) within the group?   Yes ... O'Malley
2. Have the members been accurately grouped?   They appear to be.
3. Are there any clues as to where the group is from?   Possibly England or Scotland.
4. How old is the group?   The two test-takers probably share a common ancestor some time between 1000-1800 AD.
5. Is the group likely to be associated with an Irish “Clan”?   It is difficult to say at this stage because of the limited amount of information available, but their nearest genetic neighbours include two men called Turner which possibly suggests an English or Scottish origin. But bear in mind that the connection to these 2 men is 2500 years ago, and a lot can happen in that time. So alternatively, Group 7 could be a rare branch of the O'Malley clan, with few surviving members, and even fewer surviving members who have done a Y-DNA test.

And that is the current status of Group 7. Hopefully more people will join this group over time and their results will shed more light on the questions above.

Maurice Gleeson

June 2025